| | colanderman on April 15, 2011 | parent | context | favorite | on: FBI seized PokerStars.com, FullTiltPoker.com, UB.c...
This doesn't make any sense to me... is bartering illegal? Where does one draw the line between bartering with chips and paying with chips? |  | | ChuckMcM on April 15, 2011 | next [–]
No bartering is not illegal. Neither is buying, selling, and trading collectible Barbies. What is considered to be illegal (and I'm not a lawyer so I can't say definitively if it is or isn't) is creating an instrument, which represents a value (possibly fixed), and engaging in commerce using the instruments in lieu of the actual thing.So trading a Malibu Barbie for a Space Barbie, or perhaps a Barbie Dream Home would not be a 'currency' transaction, giving someone a Malibu Barbie to pay for a lunch that was nominally $25 and having the person who got that Barbie then take it and buy $25 worth of groceries, and having the grocer be able to deposit it in their bank account and get credited with $25. That would be treating it like a currency. There is a wonderful discussion on currency and what it is in the course Economics [1] offered by "The Great Courses". There is a wonderful story about an island which trades ownership interest in large rocks on another island as their currency. If you commute to work I highly recommend these courses as a way to pass the time and learn something (or at least get something to think about) while doing it. Don't be afraid of the price they regularly put things on sale for lots off. And if you have a library nearby you can sometimes check them out. [1] http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/courses/course_detail.asp... update: I remember that one of the key things about the test of whether something was a currency or not, is if it could be exchanged back into another currency. Its one of the things various "points", "miles", and other systems avoid is an explicit path to turn them back into cash. Sure you can buy a $50 VISA gift card and sell it to someone for $50 but its not like you can go to the bank and turn it back into $50. | | | | Splines on April 15, 2011 | parent | next [–]
| | | | colanderman on April 16, 2011 | parent | prev | next [–]
The Barbie example doesn't really make much sense. I could just as easily say I'm trading Malibu Barbie which is nominally worth $25 for a Space Barbie which is nominally worth the same, and run afowl of currency laws. Or that I'm trading Space Barbie for lunch with no mention of nominal worth and call it barter.The test you propose about conversion is at least logically consistent, but it's not what I see applied. For example, Berkshares (local currency in the Berkshires) can be traded for USD but they don't run afowl of currency laws. | | | | elliottcarlson on April 15, 2011 | prev [–]
Depends on the intentions... are you a farmer bartering your crops for another farmers meat; or are you knowingly circumventing laws.This is similar to the way Pachinko parlors work in Japan and Taiwan - you collect a ball from the machine when you win, and with a certain amount of balls you can receive various token prizes. This prize can then be redeemed around the corner at a different location for cash. Cash was exchanged - there were just middlemen involved - but it still comes down to gambling. If you are intending to replace currency with something else not produced by the government, then you are not bartering, you are introducing private currency and that is illegal. | | | | nika on April 15, 2011 | parent [–]
| | | | ChuckMcM on April 15, 2011 | root | parent | next [–]
Nika, none of the issuers you mention will convert back into dollars. Its a one way street. Presumably they have set up agreements with people who will accept them an they have pre-negotiated a discount rate. Its like chucky cheese tokens, you can't turn them back into quarters so that you can play more video games. | | | | zach on April 15, 2011 | root | parent | next [–]
Actually, now that you mention it...According to recent California law, "a gift certificate with a cash value of less than ten dollars ($10) is redeemable in cash (not a new certificate or merchandise) for its cash value." Disney dollars are generally available only in denominations of $10 or less, so they may actually be an incredibly-inconvenient cash equivalent in California. | | | | ChuckMcM on April 15, 2011 | root | parent | next [–]
According to the 'reference site' [1]"Disney Dollars DO NOT expire. The oldest bill from 1987 can still be used today. As they are worth real money. They also may be exchanged back for the U.S. Dollars or purchased using the same. They may used to pay for anything that can be normally paid for with cash including the following locations: (only Disney locations)" They are exactly like casino chips, which is to say that within the Disney properties they can be used equivalently to cash, and even converted back into cash. Given the Las Vegas experience however, I suspect that people in and around Orlando or other Disney locations, who aren't associated with Disney, should not accept them in lieu of cash. One of the parallels to remember, the Secret Service wasn't going after the casinos for their chips, they were going after people who accepted them as cash even though they had no business relationship with the casino. [1] http://disneydollars.net/where_can_disney_dollars_be_used.ht... | | | | makmanalp on April 15, 2011 | root | parent | prev | next [–]
What about bitcoins? I thought you could convert those back to dollars. | | | | ChuckMcM on April 15, 2011 | root | parent | next [–]
Good question. Early on when I was trying to create a milli-cent currency for subscription buying of content from a website we wondered if we offered a refund for our digital cash tokens if we'd get in trouble for it.As it turned out the Digi-cash folks had all the patents and were being real dicks about licensing so we never got to test the question. I can absolutely predict that if you can buy several hundred thousand dollars worth of bitcoins from person X, and then go to persons P, Q, R, ... Z and redeeem them back for cash, that the authorities will shut down that sort of thing quite quickly. | | | | weavejester on April 15, 2011 | root | parent | next [–]
"I can absolutely predict that if you can buy several hundred thousand dollars worth of bitcoins from person X, and then go to persons P, Q, R, ... Z and redeeem them back for cash, that the authorities will shut down that sort of thing quite quickly."It's already been done: http://i.imgur.com/PUMtG.jpg That's 400k BTC (about $400k) being sent to a number of different accounts. | | | | kwis on April 15, 2011 | root | parent | next [–]
Good luck cashing that out without crashing the market. Somebody pointed out, just a few days ago, that a $10k sell-off recently scrubbed 25% off BCN/USD. A 400,000BCN sell-off would almost certainly drop it to pennies. | | | | weavejester on April 15, 2011 | root | parent | next [–]
I suspect that anyone confident enough in the Bitcoin economy to invest that amount of money is not looking to cash out quickly. They may be gambling that Bitcoin becomes a commonly-used internet currency, in which case they stand to gain a lot of money in the long term.edit: Ah, I see your point. You said "redeem back to cash". Yes, that probably wouldn't work in an economy only worth a few million :) | | | | colanderman on April 16, 2011 | root | parent | prev | next [–]
| | | | elliottcarlson on April 15, 2011 | root | parent | prev [–]
You are right - as long as the nomination is exchangeable for U.S. currency and all transactions are taxed accordingly.But on the note of the parent: > Where does one draw the line between bartering with chips and paying with chips? It's not bartering when you are trying to get around things intentionally. | | | | nika on April 15, 2011 | root | parent [–]
I like how you just assert-- sans any evidence or argument-- that they are trying to "get around things intentionally". You don't even say what things.Don't bother, I don't care. I'm just amazed at the BS this topic has elicited from people, and I am done defending these guys. All the BS is just proof of why the country is going to hell- why the FBI was able to steal $7M in gold, silver and platinum and get away with it. It is because you, and the rest of the ignorant government "educated" americans can't be bothered to think critically. | | | | elliottcarlson on April 15, 2011 | root | parent | next [–]
Do you need a hug? Seems like you are a little stressed by this thread.According to the documents posted, the poker sites in question are attempting to get around the legalities of U.S. citizens placing monetary wagers or bets on international gambling sites. This would be an intentional circumvention of the law. The example I posted in regards to Pachinko parlors circumventing their local laws by allowing people to trade in fake token prizes for cash is an example of people circumventing their local law. There is nothing wrong with bartering or the barter system - and it is perfectly legal in it's intended use, but it can be used to circumvent other laws and would be illegal based on the legal definition of intent. As for the government stealing assets illegally - yeah that's wrong. Confiscation of these .com's bothers me a great deal - but that wasn't the topic I was replying to. I am not an "ignorant government "educated" american" - and while my self education in legal matters may very well be off at times, I am able to think critically and be reasonable in what I do and don't know. The problem is, that you are unable to have a conversation with someone that may be right or wrong on a topic - and it might not always be right that you can convince someone of the true nature of matters even if you are right. That doesn't mean you can act like an asshole - which you are. You don't know me, and because of one statement you are more than willing to blame everything you conceive as wrong on someone like "me". Get off your pedestal and learn to have a civil conversation - it's an awesome trait to have. | | | | rhizome on April 15, 2011 | root | parent | prev | next [–]
This isn't really the best site for the "Wake up, sheeple!" thing. | | | | lotusleaf1987 on April 15, 2011 | root | parent | prev [–]
You come off like a completely arrogant know it all, regardless of the validity of your claims, the responses you're getting are largely from your own comment's original tone, not the subject, in my opinion of course. | | | 
