Silvery Barbs: Really All That Bad?
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Poll: Silvery Barbs: Busted, or perfectly fine?
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#1 Dec 8, 2021
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For those unfamiliar, Strixhaven contains five new spells, one for each crappy poorly-written oddly hostile-to-all-other-life magical Color Warz college of said M:tG book. One of them, a first-level spell called Silvery Barbs, is being widely hailed as egregiously power-creepy and often cited as outright broken, to the point where many DMs are outright banning the spell from their tables. Internet optimancers on YouTube are crying foul, and generally people are blowing their lids over this spell.
I find myself wondering if the spell isreallyso terrible as all that and am going to challenge the swiftly-growing conventional wisdom where Silvery Barbs is concerned.
First, a legally distinct summary of the spell's functiuon:
Silvery Barbs is a 1st level Enchantment spell, with vocal components but no somatic or material, that is cast as a reaction to another creature within 60 feet of you that you can see succeeding on a d20 roll. The target must reroll the d20 and use the lower result, while a friendly creature within range that can include yourself gains advantage on the next d20 roll they make within the next sixty seconds.People look at this spell and theylose their minds.It's one of the very few ways D&D 5e allows players to muck with enemy saving throws, which isverydifficult to do, and it dfoes not, itself, require a save - the spell simply works. Many optimancers point out that as written, Silvery Barbs allows a player to nullify advantage on an enemy roll by forcing them toroll a second disadvantage-style check on whatever the best result from their advantage roll was. This ishotlydebated, but it's certainly a logical take and an intuitive way for the spell to work. In addition, the spell allows any target of your choice (within range) to gain advantage on their own next d20 roll. It'sverygood, mostly because of how versatile it is. The spell allows you to muck with saves, but it can also allow a spellcaster equipped to Barb someone to sabotage attempts to start or escape grapples, or to overwhelm a spell with Dispel or Counterspell. it can muck with any d20 roll, which gives it a great deal of reach.Let's compare to two other spells in a broadly similar vein to Silvery Barbs, spells which are widely accepted as also being Very Good, but which are perfectly fine to use and under no illusions of being 'busted' - Shield and Faerie Fire.
Shield is a go-to defensive spell for virtually any spellcaster that can take it, adding a potent +5 AC bonus for the entire round. It's overwhelmingly used against attacks that would hit but are turned into misses, which is exactly the same thing Silvery Barbs seeks to do against attacks. Barbs, however, is cast on thehopeof turning a hit into a miss, whereas the most common usage for Shield is taking something that hit by less than 5 points and making it whiff, instead. Shield is thusly much more efficient in use of spell slots, on top of the caster retaining its protection for the entire combat round. Barbs will only ever work ononeroll, period. I would contest that Shield is an overall stronger choice as a defensive spell, especially for characters that have a reasonable AC to start with.
Of course, Shield only affects the caster and cannot provide advantage, which is why Silvery Barbs is heralded as being so excellent. It effectively steals luck from an enemy, granting advantage to your team. Once. On the first thing they do, not their choice of things to do. Which is where Faerie Fire comes in. Faerie Fire is a staple support spell that allows someone to trade their concentration in exchange for granting advantage oneveryattack roll made againsteverytarget within the spell's initial effect zone. It's also often used toeffectively negate invisibility effects on enemies, since it's awful hard to be invisible when you're covered in glowing pixie dust. Faerie Fire only grows more dangerous the more powerful your party's martial attackers become, allowing you to amplify your entire party's ability to hammer multiple targets. A single well-placed Faerie Fire can turn a difficult battle into a turkey shoot, right from level 1. it isdrasticallymore impactful than almost any single cast of Silvery Barbs could be,especiallyin Tier 1 play.
I would posit the following: Silvery Barbs is indeedverygood, but it is not broken. Its most powerful/impactful ability is monkeying with enemy saves, giving the caster a way to try and force through a particularly dangerous control spell. Sorcerers have been able to do this since 5e was released however, with their Heightened Spell metamagic, so this is not new. Silvery Barbs' ability to muck with attacks is useful but unworthy of hooplah, as screwing with one single attack will rarely save someone. The spell's ability to muck with ability checks is very interesting indeed and enables Shenanigans, but it's actually quite rare for NPCs/enemy monsters to be making ability checks beyond grappling anyways, so the shenanigans are already soft-limited.
Silvery Barbs is a fantastic pick for its versatility, allowing a caster the option to muck with almost anything a target can do, but the mucking itself is not enormously powerful. Many creatures in the game already blow through disadvantage with no trouble, and a single uncontrollable advantage roll for your team is good but hardly game-breaking. Frankly, Silvery barbs granting advantage to a friendly target is almost superfluous; nobody will use it because it offers advantage, there's so many other, better ways of gaining advantage on things. Which is the real point - Barbs can do a large number of things semi-decently, but even within first level there's a large number of spells that have a drastically greater impact within an admittedly narrower scope. Shield is a stronger defensive spell, Faerie Fire is a much better offensive-support spell, Bless offers much more impactful utility boosts...there's alotof spells someone can take that do things Barbscando, but better.
If that's the case, is Silvery barbs truly so busted as all that?
Last edited by Yurei1453: Dec 8, 2021
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#2 Dec 8, 2021
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Personally, I love the spell. Already added it to my bard.
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#3 Dec 8, 2021
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Heh, absolutely. If Star can find a scroll of Silvery Barbs she will be adding it to her spellbook posthaste.
I just find it extremely funny that in this book, we get a spell that allows you to disadvantage one enemy roll and advantage one friendly roll...and also a spell that allows you to place ANY creature you desire EXACTLY where you desire it to be, granting a spellcaster absolutely unparalleled control of the battlefield and ensuring positioning willalwaysoverwhelmingly favor the party...and it'sBarbspeople are getting up in arms about. Hueh. Like, I can absolutelyguaranteethat were I running a fight for an adventuring party and I gave my baddies access to Vortex Warp, the party would be shrieking foul and also scrambling to recover pretty much from the get-go.
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#4 Dec 8, 2021
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There are several reroll abilities in 5e, but what I think makes this one "busted" is that it guarantees to both harm the target as well as enhance an ally. Most other abilities only give you one or the other per use, and some don't even come with a guarantee that it will actually be detrimental/helpful (for example, the Runic Shield ability of Rune Knight Fighters forces a reroll but also forces the creature to use the new roll, not the lower of the two). I think the benefits outweigh the cost (1st level spell slot and your reaction).
Last edited by Kaboom979: Dec 8, 2021
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#5 Dec 8, 2021
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I believe the hate for the spell is unwarranted. It is a good spell, but I wouldn't say that it is broken.
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#6 Dec 8, 2021
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@Yurei1453:
My DM banned all of Acquisitions Incorporated because I used Fast Friends to force the compliance of a corrupt town guard who knew I had probed his mind. I imagine that if Silvery Barbs even approaches that level of power and derails my DM’s plans, I will get all of Strixhaven banned as well. :P
Last edited by Erik_Soong: Dec 8, 2021
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#7 Dec 8, 2021
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To be fair, the 'lower of the two' language on Silvery barbs is effectively equivalent to "must use the new roll" in this case, since the reaction trigger isspecifically"when a creature succeeds on an attack roll, ability check, or saving throw." There's preciselyoneexception wherein a reroll ability could make any of those worse (i.e. turning a successful attack into a successfulcrit), but in almost all cases Barbs is already acting under the assumption that whatever the new roll is cannot be worse than what the target already rolled. You cannot (by RAW) crit an ability check or a save, so there's no escalation of harm to you that Barbs can offer.
EDIT: Hueh. Fast Friends - the spell thatactuallydoes what everyonethinksCharm person does, and would also very likely be considered a war crime by any modern judge :P Remember, kids - magical brain control is an Evil act, almost regardless of intent!
Last edited by Yurei1453: Dec 8, 2021
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#8 Dec 8, 2021
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So, here are the problems as I see it:
1. The opportunities cost is extremely low. You can wait to cast this until after you see the success -- no chance of wasting it. You can even cast it on the same turn as another spell -- no loss in action economy. It's 1st level so it's easy to have enough spell slots for it. And it's broadly useful in nearly all combat scenarios, plus some social ones -- no loss in flexibility.
2. The effect is atypical and circumvents legendary resistances in what some people believe is an unintended way. Since LR causes a success, SB can then force a reroll after LR has been used. That's weird, and the uniqueness of it is a point in its favor -- even if all the other stuff I said wasn't true, you might take it just for this one use case, because nothing else can do it.
3. It's easy to get with dips and feats, and you arguably should always take it on every character. I say arguably, but I don't want to argue, so please don't take this as an invitation. Just compare it with Lucky or something. Even ignoring feats, all the casters who can take it should.
4. The flavor of it is pretty weak. This is no Fireball. The narrative here doesn't even imply magic at all, it just states that the effect is magical in order to justify it being a spell. Imagine if Green-Flame Blade dealt the same damage type as the weapon used to cast it, and was described like, "you magically hit someone with your weapon, and then hit someone else within 5ft also." Like, what??
Taken as a whole, it's just a dumb spell. Easy ban for me, but I don't think of it as banning, because I ban by default.
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#9 Dec 8, 2021
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We’ve talked about this at length already, but for me it’s simply the entire spell is positively brimming with worth; there’s simply no added potatoes to the meaty effects it delivers. A first level Enchantment is absolutely chock-full of available casters, it only uses a seldom-properly-used reaction to begin with, and it drastically enhances chances of landing a very debilitating save-or-suck spell for literally any caster.
do I think it’s broken? No. All of your points are well-made and absolutely correct; but the fact that you’ve mentioned in the same conversation as Shield and Faerie Fire simply shows how strong it really is. Shield is pretty universally the best level 1 spell in D&D, and I’d argue it’s not really close. The fact that Silvery Barbs is even sniffing the same air should require a second look, especially since we’re not talking a purely defensive bonus; Silvery Barbs has a very real chance to completely turn the tide of a combat on it’s own. Landing a Hold Person or a Hold Monster or nailing that Counterspell is a huge deal, and could be wayyy more impactful than dodging a couple of swings.
I’m totally on board for it, and frankly it adds a much-needed boost to a lot of really cool spells that only work half the time, but there’s no question in my mind it’s going to change the landscape of particularly early-tier combats.
Last edited by Acemonster: Dec 8, 2021
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#11 Dec 8, 2021
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To be fair, the 'lower of the two' language on Silvery barbs is effectively equivalent to "must use the new roll" in this case, since the reaction trigger isspecifically"when a creature succeeds on an attack roll, ability check, or saving throw." There's preciselyoneexception wherein a reroll ability could make any of those worse (i.e. turning a successful attack into a successfulcrit), but in almost all cases Barbs is already acting under the assumption that whatever the new roll is cannot be worse than what the target already rolled. You cannot (by RAW) crit an ability check or a save, so there's no escalation of harm to you that Barbs can offer.
This scenario is precisely what makes Silvery Barbs better than Runic Shield (a 6th level subclass feature).
Its arguably also better than a Divination Wizard's Portent because you get to affect two different rolls for the price of one use of the spell. By level 3 a wizard could use this spell 4 times per day to affect up to 8 rolls.At the same level, you get 2 uses of portent. Yes, it costs a spell slot and portent doesnt, but as you level up this will be less and less of an issue due to having more spells slots and more slots recovered per day.
Last edited by Kaboom979: Dec 8, 2021
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#12 Dec 8, 2021
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To be fair, the 'lower of the two' language on Silvery barbs is effectively equivalent to "must use the new roll" in this case, since the reaction trigger isspecifically"when a creature succeeds on an attack roll, ability check, or saving throw." There's preciselyoneexception wherein a reroll ability could make any of those worse (i.e. turning a successful attack into a successfulcrit), but in almost all cases Barbs is already acting under the assumption that whatever the new roll is cannot be worse than what the target already rolled. You cannot (by RAW) crit an ability check or a save, so there's no escalation of harm to you that Barbs can offer.
This scenario is precisely what makes Silvery Barbs better than Runic Shield (a 6th level subclass feature).
Its arguably also better than a Divination Wizard's Portent because you get to affect two different rolls for the price of one use of the spell. By level 3 a wizard could use this spell 4 times per day to affect up to 8 rolls.At the same level, you get 2 uses of portent. Yes, it costs a spell slot and portent doesnt, but as you level up this will be less and less of an issue due to having more spells slots and more slots recovered per day.
Portent is still better as it a guaranteed effect. Barbs is good, but it doesn't guarantee that the outcome will be altered in anyway.
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#13 Dec 8, 2021
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To be fair, the 'lower of the two' language on Silvery barbs is effectively equivalent to "must use the new roll" in this case, since the reaction trigger isspecifically"when a creature succeeds on an attack roll, ability check, or saving throw." There's preciselyoneexception wherein a reroll ability could make any of those worse (i.e. turning a successful attack into a successfulcrit), but in almost all cases Barbs is already acting under the assumption that whatever the new roll is cannot be worse than what the target already rolled. You cannot (by RAW) crit an ability check or a save, so there's no escalation of harm to you that Barbs can offer.
This scenario is precisely what makes Silvery Barbs better than Runic Shield (a 6th level subclass feature).
Its arguably also better than a Divination Wizard's Portent because you get to affect two different rolls for the price of one use of the spell. By level 3 a wizard could use this spell 4 times per day to affect up to 8 rolls.At the same level, you get 2 uses of portent. Yes, it costs a spell slot and portent doesnt, but as you level up this will be less and less of an issue due to having more spells slots and more slots recovered per day.
Portent is still better as it a guaranteed effect. Barbs is good, but it doesn't guarantee that the outcome will be altered in anyway.
But you have to declare Portent beforehand, so it also doesn't guarantee that the outcome will be altered -- you'll never know, because they don't roll. With Barbs, if they roll badly to begin with, you just keep your spell.
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#14 Dec 8, 2021
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Quote from ChoirOfFire >>
So, here are the problems as I see it:
1. The opportunities cost is extremely low. You can wait to cast this until after you see the success -- no chance of wasting it. You can even cast it on the same turn as another spell -- no loss in action economy. It's 1st level so it's easy to have enough spell slots for it. And it's broadly useful in nearly all combat scenarios, plus some social ones -- no loss in flexibility.
2. The effect is atypical and circumvents legendary resistances in what some people believe is an unintended way. Since LR causes a success, SB can then force a reroll after LR has been used. That's weird, and the uniqueness of it is a point in its favor -- even if all the other stuff I said wasn't true, you might take it just for this one use case, because nothing else can do it.
3. It's easy to get with dips and feats, and you arguably should always take it on every character. I say arguably, but I don't want to argue, so please don't take this as an invitation. Just compare it with Lucky or something. Even ignoring feats, all the casters who can take it should.
4. The flavor of it is pretty weak. This is no Fireball. The narrative here doesn't even imply magic at all, it just states that the effect is magical in order to justify it being a spell. Imagine if Green-Flame Blade dealt the same damage type as the weapon used to cast it, and was described like, "you magically hit someone with your weapon, and then hit someone else within 5ft also." Like, what??
Taken as a whole, it's just a dumb spell. Easy ban for me, but I don't think of it as banning, because I ban by default.
1.) This is the same as other defensive spells such as Shield or Absorb Elements that are only used when it's fer-sher that their use will have an impact. Barbs is more versatile than other first-level defensive spells, for sure - but it ain't gonna help you survive a red dragon's firebombing or withstand that same dragon's godawful melee multiattack.2.) My table actually went over this and arrived at the same RAW that the developers have already stated was their RAI - legendary resistance always wins. Legendary resistance states "when you fail a saving throw, you can choose to succeed instead". Silvery Barbs doesn't force the creature to make anewsaving throw, it modifies the original saving throw and could turn a potential natural success into a failure. That said? It's still a failed saving throw, and Legendary Resistance says the creature can treat that failure as a success no matter how that save was failed. Barbs can force a creature tousea legendary resistance, if it turns a natural success into a failure, but it cannotovercomea legendary resistance.
3.) Y'all posted in a discussion thread. Saying "please don't argue" doesn't fly :P It is indeed very good, but different builds like different spells. If you're burning a feat specifically to acquire Silvery Barbs (generally Fey-Touched, I would assume), then you're losing something else. Many characters simply don't have room - I'm building up a 12th-level bard, for instance, that currently doesnothave Barbs simply because I cannot afford to lose any of the other first-level spells I've already got for it. If I had room on that character for Fey-Touched Imighttake Barbs. Or I might take Hex, for the constant, ongoing ability check disadvantage that's generally more useful. I'd love to have Barbs, but it's not necessarily mandatory.
4.) The flavor on every spell is weak if you let it be weak. No, this isn't some big flashy Elemental Devastation Evocation spell, but if Icouldtake it on that bard I mentioned earlier, I already know what the verbal component would be. Namely: "OBJECTION!" And frankly the flavor on Barbs is no less weaksauce-as-written than the flavor on Counterspell, or Dispel Magic, or many other "magically screw with somebody" spells. Charm Person doesn't give you a fancy visual effect, either. Hell, unless you invent one,HoldPerson has no 'flavor' to it either, and the Hold spells are among the most devastating single-target debuffs in the whole-ass game.
I don't tell other DMs how to run their games - if ye want it banned, then by all means ban it. Heh, just wanted to start a discussion with folks to see if it was really so terrible as everyone keeps making it out to be.
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#15 Dec 8, 2021
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Barbsdoes a lot of things that other tools do, but better. It is effectively able to force apseudo disadvantage on attack rolls retroactively, but doesn't even have to be used until after the first roll is made. Compare this to Vicious Mockery, where the caster needs to spend their action, then the target needs to fail their saving throw (for pitiful damage) and then the target has to make an attack roll for it to be useful. If that target instead uses an ability that doesn't make an attack roll, well done on your 1d4 damage. Yes, it's a cantrip, so it's going to be weaker, but its the mechanics that I want to point out. There are a lot of steps to other spells being useful.
Barbs on the other hand? You can still cast other powerful spells as an action, and then on the enemies turn you can force a pseudo disadvantage attack roll on them, but only if they are going to be making an attack roll anyway. Enemy got a crit? Best case scenario the forced reroll misses. Worst case scenario (0.05% chance to happen) they get another crit. Anything in between that, well here, use your reaction to usethe Grave cleric feature (with twice the range and as many uses as you want to spend spell slots on, not just a maximum of 5).
You don't need to castBarbs at all until the target makes it relevant. And then once you do all that you canalso give a better version of the Help action to anyone you want in a range that is twice as big as a Mastermind rogue has for their class feature and lasts for a minute and isn't limited by how many people you can give this too.
The spell itself isn't actually all bad, mechanics wise, but the benefit is far greater than the cost.Those things I mentioned are strong indeed, and it's fine to have strong spells, but that should also be reflected in limitations, the most easily adjustable one being the spell level. As it stands, this 1st level spell is one that you won't ever want to not take as it is so damn cheap to cast. As for comparing it to other spells like Shield and Faerie Fire, you can even take both, given the appropriate class.
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#16 Dec 8, 2021
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Another thing that Silvery Barbs can do that is a somewhat rare ability in 5e is the ability to negate an enemy's critical hit.The only otherthings that I can think of that can do such a thing is Runic Shield, Sentinel at Death's Door, and Adamantine Armor. The former two are subclass features that are 6th level or higher and the latter is a magic item.
This 1st level spell can do that AND give you or an ally advantage on your next roll on top of that. Not to mention, the spell then also has versatility beyond that application (so it is not as limited to only affecting one type of roll like Sentinel at Death's Door and the effect of the armor).
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#17 Dec 8, 2021
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Shadow Sorcs will love this spell. They can already impose disadvantage with their Hound of Ill Omen and can impose -1d4 with Mind Sliver. So then being able to use a reaction if they still succeed to force a reroll and use the lower roll?
Yeah, I can see why people are a bit "dafluff?!" over this. In some situations/builds it basically guarantees you a win if the DM doesn't use their Shenanigans button to specifically counter it.
But it isn't quite as good as everything thinks, as in most cases it actually isn't quite the win-button as other , more generic, options are. Especially against enemies with Legendary Resistance since those enemies can just succeed regardless of any roll, a few times a day, which is more than enough. I mean, a vengeance pally can just target an enemy and give themselves advantage to all attacks, can use Hold Person for auto crits, and release mega-holymarysue-****tons of smite damage.
Really good spell, but there are many other features/spells/builds that can be far more "broken".
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#18 Dec 8, 2021
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Quote from ChoirOfFire >>
To be fair, the 'lower of the two' language on Silvery barbs is effectively equivalent to "must use the new roll" in this case, since the reaction trigger isspecifically"when a creature succeeds on an attack roll, ability check, or saving throw." There's preciselyoneexception wherein a reroll ability could make any of those worse (i.e. turning a successful attack into a successfulcrit), but in almost all cases Barbs is already acting under the assumption that whatever the new roll is cannot be worse than what the target already rolled. You cannot (by RAW) crit an ability check or a save, so there's no escalation of harm to you that Barbs can offer.
This scenario is precisely what makes Silvery Barbs better than Runic Shield (a 6th level subclass feature).
Its arguably also better than a Divination Wizard's Portent because you get to affect two different rolls for the price of one use of the spell. By level 3 a wizard could use this spell 4 times per day to affect up to 8 rolls.At the same level, you get 2 uses of portent. Yes, it costs a spell slot and portent doesnt, but as you level up this will be less and less of an issue due to having more spells slots and more slots recovered per day.
Portent is still better as it a guaranteed effect. Barbs is good, but it doesn't guarantee that the outcome will be altered in anyway.
But you have to declare Portent beforehand, so it also doesn't guarantee that the outcome will be altered -- you'll never know, because they don't roll. With Barbs, if they roll badly to begin with, you just keep your spell.
Still a guaranteed outcome is still better than a maybe any day of the week.
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#19 Dec 8, 2021
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But it isn't quite as good as everything thinks, as in most cases it actually isn't quite the win-button as other , more generic, options are. Especially against enemies with Legendary Resistance since those enemies can just succeed regardless of any roll, a few times a day, which is more than enough. I mean, a vengeance pally can just target an enemy and give themselves advantage to all attacks, can use Hold Person for auto crits, and release mega-holymarysue-****tons of smite damage.
Most high CR creatures with legendary resistance have only three uses per day. A measly level 3 wizard could cast this spell 4 times per day. By the time they are actually the appropriate level for the party to fight this monster they could burn all their first level spell slots on this spell alone and still be able to cast 2nd+ level spells offensively.
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#20 Dec 8, 2021
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Sure but those high level enemies, which often have high stats and can easily succeed even with a reroll, aren't going to be standing there doing nothing. most also get legendary actions too.
Mage casts spells
Enemy resists
Mage uses reaction for the Silvery barbs
Enemy rerolls, fails and uses legendary resistance
End of mage turn, enemy uses legendary action to bring some hurt to mage
Enemy turn, they focus on the mage that made them use their LR
Squishy mage be dead in no time.
Silver barbs cant save that mage.So again, Useful? Very. Broken? Nah.
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#22 Dec 8, 2021
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The other argument I've heard is that it's basically like casting your best single target spell again, as a reaction, using a first level slot. Of course, that's only true if your enemy succeeded their save, but as I've said, it's hardly as if Barbs is a dead spell otherwise.
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